1
00:00:05,869 --> 00:00:03,590
it it really is a terrible idea

2
00:00:07,579 --> 00:00:05,879
to try to change the meaning so that

3
00:00:10,820 --> 00:00:07,589
people can't even get certain thoughts

4
00:00:15,980 --> 00:00:10,830
across so if you ask is it possible for

5
00:00:18,710 --> 00:00:15,990
a white powerless unemployed

6
00:00:23,439 --> 00:00:18,720
working-class person in a poor southern

7
00:00:25,730 --> 00:00:23,449
in order Appalachian town to be have

8
00:00:28,130 --> 00:00:25,740
derogatory opinions about

9
00:00:30,380 --> 00:00:28,140
african-americans and you say oh no we

10
00:00:38,060 --> 00:00:30,390
can't ask if he's racist because racist

11
00:00:41,660 --> 00:00:38,070
means power hi professor it's a pleasure

12
00:00:43,490 --> 00:00:41,670
to meet you nice to meet you I'm Kurt

13
00:00:45,350 --> 00:00:43,500
I'm uncle the director this is Peter and

14
00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:45,360
he's helping me tag-team this interview

15
00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:46,770
okay very good

16
00:00:52,189 --> 00:00:49,610
pleasure to meet you nice to meet you

17
00:00:56,950 --> 00:00:52,199
okay so is it all ready if we just get

18
00:01:00,549 --> 00:00:58,959
starting off I want to know what is the

19
00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:00,559
left we have to define the left and I

20
00:01:05,109 --> 00:01:02,570
would like you to give its defining

21
00:01:07,090 --> 00:01:05,119
traits its characteristics it's hard to

22
00:01:09,580 --> 00:01:07,100
give a definition because political

23
00:01:12,070 --> 00:01:09,590
ideologies turn into tribes and so

24
00:01:13,450 --> 00:01:12,080
people affiliate with those in the group

25
00:01:16,149 --> 00:01:13,460
they like to interact with that they

26
00:01:18,010 --> 00:01:16,159
valued morally and nowadays especially

27
00:01:20,830 --> 00:01:18,020
the United States it's harder and harder

28
00:01:22,870 --> 00:01:20,840
to discern a common intellectual thread

29
00:01:24,609 --> 00:01:22,880
behind the left and the right we see

30
00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:24,619
that especially in the rough it's where

31
00:01:32,830 --> 00:01:29,890
you have pro-russian anti-free trade

32
00:01:35,529 --> 00:01:32,840
right-wingers all go in the mind of

33
00:01:39,100 --> 00:01:35,539
anyone who was a right-wing or even 10

34
00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:39,110
years ago also vote the left has

35
00:01:44,830 --> 00:01:41,570
switched in a number of its affiliations

36
00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:44,840
but I would use it informally in a way

37
00:01:51,279 --> 00:01:48,890
that people tend to identify those who

38
00:01:54,010 --> 00:01:51,289
are sympathetic with with socialism

39
00:01:56,109 --> 00:01:54,020
those who tend to be at least in

40
00:01:57,700 --> 00:01:56,119
American politics more likely to be the

41
00:01:59,559 --> 00:01:57,710
Democratic Party than the Republican

42
00:02:01,899 --> 00:01:59,569
Party there are a number of positions

43
00:02:04,719 --> 00:02:01,909
that go with it but they can often be

44
00:02:07,630 --> 00:02:04,729
blurred as the coalition's themselves

45
00:02:09,249 --> 00:02:07,640
Ricola less would you identify with or

46
00:02:14,410 --> 00:02:09,259
do you identify with someone who's on

47
00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:14,420
the Left no I certainly don't identify

48
00:02:19,530 --> 00:02:17,570
with the right and most people would

49
00:02:22,509 --> 00:02:19,540
identify me based on my positions as

50
00:02:25,140 --> 00:02:22,519
center left in terms of them I believe

51
00:02:28,890 --> 00:02:25,150
in a graduated income tax I believe in

52
00:02:35,020 --> 00:02:28,900
regulations on environmental

53
00:02:39,190 --> 00:02:35,030
despoliation I agree I'm in favor of

54
00:02:41,050 --> 00:02:39,200
from social programs like welfare and

55
00:02:44,140 --> 00:02:41,060
medicine on the other hand I also

56
00:02:47,110 --> 00:02:44,150
believe in the importance of markets I

57
00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:47,120
believe in the primacy of free speech

58
00:02:54,900 --> 00:02:51,370
and individual rights I believe that

59
00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:54,910
policing is an important component of

60
00:02:59,680 --> 00:02:57,290
reduction of violence which is not a

61
00:03:03,520 --> 00:02:59,690
popular view on the left so I have an

62
00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:03,530
eclectic mix which I examine on an

63
00:03:07,569 --> 00:03:05,810
issue-by-issue basis and evaluate in

64
00:03:10,449 --> 00:03:07,579
terms of my best reading of the evidence

65
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:10,459
but I try not to fall into an ideology

66
00:03:14,149 --> 00:03:11,010
or quite

67
00:03:17,690 --> 00:03:14,159
left there seems to be a considerable

68
00:03:19,220 --> 00:03:17,700
overlap recognizing these differences in

69
00:03:26,030 --> 00:03:19,230
your opinion when does the left go to

70
00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:26,040
far you know let's say a number of ways

71
00:03:30,890 --> 00:03:28,530
is especially the contemporary left has

72
00:03:36,890 --> 00:03:30,900
tended to gravitate toward identity

73
00:03:38,750 --> 00:03:36,900
politics toward seeing debate and

74
00:03:41,690 --> 00:03:38,760
analysis of social issues in terms of

75
00:03:44,119 --> 00:03:41,700
the relative power of different ethnic

76
00:03:46,099 --> 00:03:44,129
groups and races and seeing social

77
00:03:48,710 --> 00:03:46,109
progress in terms of rectifying and

78
00:03:52,670 --> 00:03:48,720
imbalance between whites and blacks or

79
00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:52,680
men and women as opposed to recognizing

80
00:03:56,660 --> 00:03:54,450
discrimination that has occurred but

81
00:03:59,180 --> 00:03:56,670
striving toward a society in which

82
00:04:00,830 --> 00:03:59,190
people are evaluated based on their

83
00:04:03,379 --> 00:04:00,840
individual rights and their individual

84
00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:03,389
merits so identity politics and with

85
00:04:10,250 --> 00:04:07,290
that a a relativistic epistemology that

86
00:04:12,289 --> 00:04:10,260
says that your opinions are determined

87
00:04:14,660 --> 00:04:12,299
to by your race your gender your sexual

88
00:04:17,689 --> 00:04:14,670
orientation your handicap status as

89
00:04:20,390 --> 00:04:17,699
opposed to their internal consistency

90
00:04:22,850 --> 00:04:20,400
and support by evidence

91
00:04:26,330 --> 00:04:22,860
I think there's far too much hostility

92
00:04:28,810 --> 00:04:26,340
to markets into capitalism on the left

93
00:04:31,969 --> 00:04:28,820
is given the historical and contemporary

94
00:04:34,850 --> 00:04:31,979
rector of which societies one we want to

95
00:04:37,689 --> 00:04:34,860
Riven North Korea versus South Korea

96
00:04:45,110 --> 00:04:37,699
West Germany versus East Germany

97
00:04:46,670 --> 00:04:45,120
Venezuela vs. Uruguay for example let's

98
00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:46,680
see though well those are old I think

99
00:04:55,879 --> 00:04:52,410
the as I mentioned before the hostility

100
00:04:59,240 --> 00:04:55,889
on the left to rule of law and law

101
00:05:02,029 --> 00:04:59,250
enforcement is inconsistent with their

102
00:05:04,159 --> 00:05:02,039
role of policing in reducing violent

103
00:05:08,510 --> 00:05:04,169
crime that be another issue that the

104
00:05:12,980 --> 00:05:08,520
left I think has lost touch with with

105
00:05:15,770 --> 00:05:12,990
facts and the importance of market

106
00:05:18,589 --> 00:05:15,780
economies in elevating societies from

107
00:05:21,050 --> 00:05:18,599
extreme poverty the fact that global

108
00:05:22,969 --> 00:05:21,060
extreme poverty has declined by 75

109
00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:22,979
percent in the last 30 years largely

110
00:05:26,469 --> 00:05:24,770
because of liberalisation

111
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:26,479
market economies in countries like China

112
00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:30,770
and Vietnam and India so those are a

113
00:05:36,129 --> 00:05:34,330
number of issues in which the left has

114
00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:36,139
gone off the tracks

115
00:05:45,510 --> 00:05:38,930
but the contemporary American right is

116
00:05:50,860 --> 00:05:48,490
integrating international agreements and

117
00:05:53,409 --> 00:05:50,870
norms which are increasingly going to be

118
00:05:56,770 --> 00:05:53,419
necessary to confront global challenges

119
00:06:02,620 --> 00:05:56,780
like climate change the hostility to any

120
00:06:05,950 --> 00:06:02,630
form of regulation even ones that would

121
00:06:10,029 --> 00:06:05,960
be justified by a market friendly

122
00:06:11,770 --> 00:06:10,039
mindset such as pricing harm to the

123
00:06:13,689 --> 00:06:11,780
environment which even if you're a

124
00:06:19,020 --> 00:06:13,699
staunch capitalist utilize the market

125
00:06:24,490 --> 00:06:19,030
itself will not take care of the

126
00:06:26,950 --> 00:06:24,500
indifference to the the plight of people

127
00:06:30,129 --> 00:06:26,960
who can't contribute enough to a market

128
00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:30,139
economy to support a decent way of life

129
00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:33,530
the difference today to the poor to the

130
00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:35,930
sick after the elderly and therefore a

131
00:06:42,850 --> 00:06:39,310
rather ideological opposition to all

132
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:42,860
forms of government assistance to the to

133
00:06:47,529 --> 00:06:44,690
the needy we just know again there's

134
00:06:49,990 --> 00:06:47,539
nothing that dictates that you have to

135
00:06:52,060 --> 00:06:50,000
be hostile to social programs if you're

136
00:06:54,059 --> 00:06:52,070
sympathetic to markets because it's just

137
00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:54,069
a basic of

138
00:06:59,499 --> 00:06:56,330
analysis of markets that they don't

139
00:07:02,200 --> 00:06:59,509
provide for for the poor so unless you

140
00:07:04,089 --> 00:07:02,210
just are happy to let the cooler starve

141
00:07:06,610 --> 00:07:04,099
and die of disease you have to have

142
00:07:08,770 --> 00:07:06,620
markets you have to have mechanisms that

143
00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:08,780
the market doesn't provide it is hardly

144
00:07:15,670 --> 00:07:11,090
radical eating if you are a free market

145
00:07:18,580 --> 00:07:15,680
libertarian sorry you've done some work

146
00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:18,590
with the heterodox Academy right I guess

147
00:07:22,570 --> 00:07:20,330
that's right I gave the keynote at their

148
00:07:24,999 --> 00:07:22,580
last meeting for example have you seen

149
00:07:26,620 --> 00:07:25,009
the rise of the campus left do you see

150
00:07:28,719 --> 00:07:26,630
it as becoming more extreme in the past

151
00:07:30,249 --> 00:07:28,729
few years and and can you give some

152
00:07:33,730 --> 00:07:30,259
examples of that if you do see it as

153
00:07:35,409 --> 00:07:33,740
becoming more extreme yeah I think it I

154
00:07:38,589 --> 00:07:35,419
think it has although as I said in my

155
00:07:41,469 --> 00:07:38,599
address contra contra Billy Joel we did

156
00:07:43,810 --> 00:07:41,479
start the fire we did the baby boomers

157
00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:43,820
and there were episodes of intolerance

158
00:07:49,180 --> 00:07:47,330
and shutting down of free speech when I

159
00:07:52,269 --> 00:07:49,190
was an undergraduate number of decades

160
00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:52,279
ago I think there is an increase in the

161
00:08:01,390 --> 00:07:55,610
number of speakers who are decided who

162
00:08:02,769 --> 00:08:01,400
are shouting down with loud protests

163
00:08:05,740 --> 00:08:02,779
sometimes physical alteration

164
00:08:09,310 --> 00:08:05,750
altercations with the setting of fire

165
00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:09,320
alarms and we also know just by

166
00:08:15,370 --> 00:08:11,810
surveys of a political affiliation of

167
00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:15,380
professors that they are drifting rather

168
00:08:18,730 --> 00:08:16,490
sharply to the left

169
00:08:20,890 --> 00:08:18,740
in many humanities departments there are

170
00:08:23,769 --> 00:08:20,900
more Marxists than there are people who

171
00:08:27,670 --> 00:08:23,779
identify as conservatives why do you

172
00:08:30,790 --> 00:08:27,680
think that is some of it is because of

173
00:08:34,810 --> 00:08:30,800
an increase in social and residential

174
00:08:37,990 --> 00:08:34,820
segregation that people with higher

175
00:08:40,149 --> 00:08:38,000
amounts of education will live with

176
00:08:43,060 --> 00:08:40,159
other people who are just like them and

177
00:08:47,319 --> 00:08:43,070
people particularly in on college

178
00:08:48,550 --> 00:08:47,329
campuses or in large cities and people

179
00:08:52,030 --> 00:08:48,560
who are more conservative

180
00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:52,040
tend to be more in the suburbs exurbs in

181
00:08:58,300 --> 00:08:55,490
rural areas partly because academia has

182
00:09:01,449 --> 00:08:58,310
some I think some pathologies in terms

183
00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:01,459
of people hiring people like themselves

184
00:09:07,410 --> 00:09:04,370
so that once there was a generation that

185
00:09:10,060 --> 00:09:07,420
got tenure in many departments they

186
00:09:14,079 --> 00:09:10,070
replicated themselves hired people with

187
00:09:16,350 --> 00:09:14,089
the same so those are a couple of the

188
00:09:18,699 --> 00:09:16,360
reasons is there's also a natural

189
00:09:21,370 --> 00:09:18,709
there's a I think a natural affinity

190
00:09:23,650 --> 00:09:21,380
among intellectuals for more liberal

191
00:09:25,630 --> 00:09:23,660
positions some of the justified it was

192
00:09:29,579 --> 00:09:25,640
often liberals and leftists who are at

193
00:09:32,410 --> 00:09:29,589
the forefront of social movements that

194
00:09:35,110 --> 00:09:32,420
universally now I take for granted and

195
00:09:39,730 --> 00:09:35,120
that we now enjoy such as racial

196
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:39,740
equality gender equality and gay rights

197
00:09:45,850 --> 00:09:43,610
so some degree of liberal filters may be

198
00:09:52,350 --> 00:09:45,860
a good thing but when it comes to

199
00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:54,730
recognising that universities are not

200
00:10:01,420 --> 00:09:57,770
structured in a totalitarian fashion and

201
00:10:04,180 --> 00:10:01,430
that there still are orthodoxies in

202
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:04,190
universities and taboos some of which

203
00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:06,890
you have touched on do you believe that

204
00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:09,770
universities follow a propaganda model

205
00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:15,050
or would you not go that far no I mean I

206
00:10:19,900 --> 00:10:17,690
think there are tendencies in some

207
00:10:22,170 --> 00:10:19,910
disciplines in some departments toward

208
00:10:25,180 --> 00:10:22,180
replicating with particular ideologies

209
00:10:27,220 --> 00:10:25,190
the other hand a lot of members of the

210
00:10:31,260 --> 00:10:27,230
heterodox Academy are university

211
00:10:34,690 --> 00:10:31,270
professors a lot of the responses to

212
00:10:38,170 --> 00:10:34,700
campus suppression come from campuses so

213
00:10:40,660 --> 00:10:38,180
it is not it is not utilitarian it is

214
00:10:43,660 --> 00:10:40,670
not a propaganda Factory you had

215
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:43,670
mentioned a variance by discipline in

216
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:46,850
terms of how ideological these

217
00:10:50,950 --> 00:10:48,050
disciplines become that there's a

218
00:10:53,260 --> 00:10:50,960
variance what explains this variance why

219
00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:53,270
are certain disciplines more ideological

220
00:10:59,260 --> 00:10:57,050
let's say than others this is purely

221
00:11:01,030 --> 00:10:59,270
speculative but I think disciplines that

222
00:11:03,150 --> 00:11:01,040
are closer to the sciences tend to be a

223
00:11:05,710 --> 00:11:03,160
little less ideological because there is

224
00:11:09,310 --> 00:11:05,720
at least a commitment and sometimes the

225
00:11:11,110 --> 00:11:09,320
reality of holding your beliefs to a

226
00:11:15,550 --> 00:11:11,120
caracal account to see which of your

227
00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:15,560
beliefs survive empirical tests whereas

228
00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:19,130
in disciplines where that is not on a

229
00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:22,130
norm or an ideal or an aspiration they

230
00:11:28,690 --> 00:11:24,560
can be more justyou force of personality

231
00:11:30,790 --> 00:11:28,700
charisma rhetoric that can preserve

232
00:11:33,490 --> 00:11:30,800
certain beliefs against a possible

233
00:11:35,590 --> 00:11:33,500
falsification I remember you were

234
00:11:37,570 --> 00:11:35,600
talking about the effects of political

235
00:11:40,390 --> 00:11:37,580
correctness in the form of a backlash a

236
00:11:42,430 --> 00:11:40,400
rise of the right like a counter

237
00:11:44,380 --> 00:11:42,440
position and you already mentioned that

238
00:11:45,940 --> 00:11:44,390
the right seems to pose a greater threat

239
00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:45,950
right now can you talk about the

240
00:11:49,930 --> 00:11:47,930
relationship why is it that why is it is

241
00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:49,940
it necessary that when the left gets too

242
00:11:55,420 --> 00:11:52,130
out of hand and the right does something

243
00:11:57,750 --> 00:11:55,430
similar that's not exactly the argument

244
00:11:59,670 --> 00:11:57,760
it's more that when opinions get

245
00:12:02,999 --> 00:11:59,680
suppressed

246
00:12:07,460 --> 00:12:03,009
and people who might even be reasonable

247
00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:07,470
same opinion suppress suspect that the

248
00:12:12,989 --> 00:12:09,970
academia or whatever form it is can't

249
00:12:16,049 --> 00:12:12,999
handle the truth that bear if they can't

250
00:12:18,030 --> 00:12:16,059
show why a position is wrong why it

251
00:12:19,919 --> 00:12:18,040
seemed coherent why is contradicted by

252
00:12:20,910 --> 00:12:19,929
the facts but they just fed it out

253
00:12:22,439 --> 00:12:20,920
completely

254
00:12:23,759 --> 00:12:22,449
they suspect well there must be

255
00:12:24,689 --> 00:12:23,769
something to that idea because if

256
00:12:26,369 --> 00:12:24,699
there's something wrong with it they

257
00:12:28,199 --> 00:12:26,379
could just show it's what was wrong we

258
00:12:31,199 --> 00:12:28,209
wouldn't have to squelch it and so they

259
00:12:35,730 --> 00:12:31,209
can retreat to their own bubbles we're

260
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:35,740
much more extreme and dogmatic and

261
00:12:41,929 --> 00:12:38,290
categorical and unsubtle versions of the

262
00:12:46,819 --> 00:12:41,939
hypothesis can that I can confess her

263
00:12:48,900 --> 00:12:46,829
unopposed by people who might be more

264
00:12:51,299 --> 00:12:48,910
conversant with it with the data and the

265
00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:51,309
counter arguments so they can be a kind

266
00:13:01,919 --> 00:12:55,569
of maligned mirror image of campus

267
00:13:03,179 --> 00:13:01,929
orthodoxy in both write orthodoxy now by

268
00:13:06,210 --> 00:13:03,189
the way the reason that I think that the

269
00:13:07,860 --> 00:13:06,220
right is worse is because they they have

270
00:13:09,239 --> 00:13:07,870
power I mean their senators they're the

271
00:13:13,769 --> 00:13:09,249
governor's they're the President and

272
00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:13,779
though the right-wing orthodoxy is much

273
00:13:19,290 --> 00:13:16,800
more dangerous than professors and

274
00:13:21,569 --> 00:13:19,300
students shutting out speakers in

275
00:13:24,150 --> 00:13:21,579
universities but they do they can feed

276
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:24,160
each other where a lot of the so let me

277
00:13:35,189 --> 00:13:30,850
just be concrete there are universities

278
00:13:40,350 --> 00:13:35,199
there is often a hostility and a lack of

279
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:40,360
comprehension of market economies now in

280
00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:42,490
reality there is no such thing as a

281
00:13:47,009 --> 00:13:43,929
market economy that does not have

282
00:13:49,129 --> 00:13:47,019
regulation and social transfers

283
00:13:52,970 --> 00:13:49,139
redistribution that's just the

284
00:13:56,009 --> 00:13:52,980
libertarian fantasy of a perfect

285
00:13:57,749 --> 00:13:56,019
anarcho-capitalist free market country

286
00:14:00,509 --> 00:13:57,759
where the government does nothing but

287
00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:00,519
enforce contracts and prevent the use of

288
00:14:05,189 --> 00:14:03,910
force does not exist and good reasons

289
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:05,199
why it doesn't exist there are number of

290
00:14:11,070 --> 00:14:07,290
reasons why it's not level but um

291
00:14:15,090 --> 00:14:11,080
because often those on

292
00:14:22,070 --> 00:14:15,100
I campus assume that capitalism and free

293
00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:24,450
capitalism is pretty much a dirty word

294
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:28,240
on campus then get a hard-line

295
00:14:35,610 --> 00:14:33,250
libertarian rebound we're in a lot of

296
00:14:37,830 --> 00:14:35,620
the American right there's hostility to

297
00:14:40,470 --> 00:14:37,840
all regulation of hostility to all

298
00:14:42,990 --> 00:14:40,480
redistribution often resulting in the

299
00:14:46,020 --> 00:14:43,000
gutting of completely justifiable

300
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:46,030
mechanisms of regulation or or social

301
00:14:53,970 --> 00:14:50,850
programs a reaction to the uncritical

302
00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:53,980
hostility to capitalism on the campus

303
00:15:02,130 --> 00:14:57,570
left so any it's unhealthy when you have

304
00:15:04,620 --> 00:15:02,140
such a lack of nuance a lack of

305
00:15:07,170 --> 00:15:04,630
compromise a lack of discussion and you

306
00:15:08,670 --> 00:15:07,180
get polarized extremes and we're seeing

307
00:15:11,730 --> 00:15:08,680
that in politics or the one hand

308
00:15:14,070 --> 00:15:11,740
universities on the other let's get into

309
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:14,080
some cognitive science I remember you

310
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:15,850
were suggesting that we have some leeway

311
00:15:19,590 --> 00:15:17,890
or some elasticity in our brain for what

312
00:15:21,210 --> 00:15:19,600
we categorized as an in-group versus an

313
00:15:23,190 --> 00:15:21,220
out-group obviously because none of us

314
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:23,200
were around each other a million years

315
00:15:27,930 --> 00:15:25,810
ago or ten thousand years ago but that

316
00:15:30,270 --> 00:15:27,940
this but the identity politics somehow

317
00:15:33,020 --> 00:15:30,280
undermines that or or takes advantage of

318
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:33,030
it in a negative manner can you explain

319
00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:40,810
this one of the core beliefs of the of

320
00:15:48,750 --> 00:15:44,320
the earth right of the ban in Breitbart

321
00:15:52,220 --> 00:15:48,760
Trump version of modern nationalism is

322
00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:52,230
that we are hard-wired to fall into

323
00:15:59,280 --> 00:15:56,890
tribes that the idea of a global

324
00:16:03,560 --> 00:15:59,290
civilization of transnational

325
00:16:06,750 --> 00:16:03,570
organizations is utopian is futile

326
00:16:08,970 --> 00:16:06,760
because we evolved as tribal creatures

327
00:16:12,090 --> 00:16:08,980
now I think we do have tribal instincts

328
00:16:13,980 --> 00:16:12,100
but what counts as a tribe is highly

329
00:16:15,870 --> 00:16:13,990
elastic and certainly not a race because

330
00:16:18,690 --> 00:16:15,880
in our evolutionary ancestry would

331
00:16:20,070 --> 00:16:18,700
seldom have encountered a person driven

332
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:20,080
off the race link so you couldn't have a

333
00:16:24,540 --> 00:16:23,650
built-in hostility other races only as

334
00:16:27,420 --> 00:16:24,550
time

335
00:16:30,570 --> 00:16:27,430
more to some notion of coalition or clan

336
00:16:35,220 --> 00:16:30,580
people who are on a side who might have

337
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:35,230
some fictive relatedness that that makes

338
00:16:40,949 --> 00:16:37,330
them seem like one brothers or or or

339
00:16:42,569 --> 00:16:40,959
like families but that the idea that

340
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:42,579
this coincides with a modern

341
00:16:47,190 --> 00:16:44,890
nation-state with the United States of

342
00:16:49,710 --> 00:16:47,200
America or France is I think

343
00:16:51,750 --> 00:16:49,720
anachronistic we have multiple tribal

344
00:16:53,639 --> 00:16:51,760
affiliations were loyal to our

345
00:16:56,220 --> 00:16:53,649
University to our sports team to our

346
00:16:59,100 --> 00:16:56,230
state or province to our country and

347
00:17:01,350 --> 00:16:59,110
that there it's not that we categorize

348
00:17:04,230 --> 00:17:01,360
ourselves as belonging to one and only

349
00:17:07,260 --> 00:17:04,240
one tribe equals nation which is in

350
00:17:09,569 --> 00:17:07,270
locked in zero-sum competition with

351
00:17:12,829 --> 00:17:09,579
other nations and that is the basis of

352
00:17:15,409 --> 00:17:12,839
crumb pused foreign policy

353
00:17:16,669 --> 00:17:15,419
okay for our viewers for the people

354
00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:16,679
watching this can you define the

355
00:17:21,279 --> 00:17:18,480
enlightenment broadly speaking what are

356
00:17:24,049 --> 00:17:21,289
the values of the Enlightenment well the

357
00:17:25,699 --> 00:17:24,059
there's no official definition because

358
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:25,709
it didn't they weren't like opening

359
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:27,360
closing ceremonies there's no membership

360
00:17:33,259 --> 00:17:29,970
card so there really is no definition

361
00:17:39,950 --> 00:17:33,269
it's it's a term that's loosely applied

362
00:17:42,019 --> 00:17:39,960
to as a movement to a number of thinkers

363
00:17:43,810 --> 00:17:42,029
in the sec typically in the second half

364
00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:43,820
or second two-thirds of the 18th century

365
00:17:53,590 --> 00:17:48,080
primarily in England Scotland America

366
00:17:58,389 --> 00:17:53,600
and Germany it tends to include a

367
00:18:02,289 --> 00:17:58,399
embrace of science skepticism toward

368
00:18:08,859 --> 00:18:02,299
religion and scripture an emphasis on

369
00:18:12,619 --> 00:18:08,869
the power of reason and of human rights

370
00:18:15,049 --> 00:18:12,629
when I referred to enlightenment ideals

371
00:18:18,139 --> 00:18:15,059
I spell it out in the subtitle of my

372
00:18:22,070 --> 00:18:18,149
book I mean the reason science humanism

373
00:18:24,739 --> 00:18:22,080
and progress now I don't claim that that

374
00:18:25,759 --> 00:18:24,749
is the correct definition of the

375
00:18:27,859 --> 00:18:25,769
arrangement I don't care what the

376
00:18:31,129 --> 00:18:27,869
correct definition is there isn't one I

377
00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:31,139
wrote a defense of Reason science

378
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:33,600
humanism and progress I used

379
00:18:38,299 --> 00:18:36,570
enlightenment as a loose label form I

380
00:18:40,639 --> 00:18:38,309
could have also called it secular

381
00:18:43,580 --> 00:18:40,649
humanism we're gonna call it cosmic

382
00:18:45,980 --> 00:18:43,590
power liberalism enlightenment ideals

383
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:45,990
were attached here but nothing is at

384
00:18:51,739 --> 00:18:48,320
stake over whether the term is correct

385
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:51,749
in that case let us dive into some of

386
00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:53,970
these ideas particularly progress and

387
00:18:59,359 --> 00:18:57,450
humanism to start I think it's fair to

388
00:19:02,180 --> 00:18:59,369
say that the term progress is very long

389
00:19:04,519 --> 00:19:02,190
and diverse history history philosophy

390
00:19:06,590 --> 00:19:04,529
in the interest of synchronizing our

391
00:19:08,810 --> 00:19:06,600
metric we'd like to touch on the

392
00:19:10,399 --> 00:19:08,820
similarities and differences of your

393
00:19:13,879 --> 00:19:10,409
view of progress and its previous

394
00:19:16,489 --> 00:19:13,889
historical usage for example the

395
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:16,499
philosopher of progress Hegel believed

396
00:19:23,149 --> 00:19:19,919
that material substance conformed to a

397
00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:23,159
sort of set inevitable ideological track

398
00:19:28,930 --> 00:19:25,910
and that this was how history were

399
00:19:31,090 --> 00:19:28,940
a sort of unfolding of material on a set

400
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:31,100
course of ideas and that this was

401
00:19:35,890 --> 00:19:33,170
inevitable but this seems to conflict

402
00:19:38,770 --> 00:19:35,900
with your view of progress would you

403
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:38,780
agree absolutely yeah well when I think

404
00:19:43,180 --> 00:19:41,360
of progress it's not that but it is

405
00:19:48,610 --> 00:19:43,190
honest but where does your view of

406
00:19:52,270 --> 00:19:48,620
progress differ first of all I deny that

407
00:19:55,690 --> 00:19:52,280
there exists a force dynamic dialectic

408
00:19:57,580 --> 00:19:55,700
that we can call progress the human

409
00:19:59,770 --> 00:19:57,590
condition does not have progress built

410
00:20:03,400 --> 00:19:59,780
then quite the contrary

411
00:20:06,660 --> 00:20:03,410
the University is a different trust kind

412
00:20:09,250 --> 00:20:06,670
of grinds us down both three forces of

413
00:20:12,370 --> 00:20:09,260
of entropy the growth of natural growth

414
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:12,380
disorder and the process of evolution

415
00:20:18,820 --> 00:20:15,850
which is a competitive process where

416
00:20:22,450 --> 00:20:18,830
various germs and parasites and

417
00:20:24,610 --> 00:20:22,460
pathogens and pestilence organisms and

418
00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:24,620
spoilage organisms are always trying to

419
00:20:31,990 --> 00:20:27,200
do us in either way in our well-being

420
00:20:35,260 --> 00:20:32,000
and the only way to progress happens in

421
00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:35,270
the teeth of all of these forces pushing

422
00:20:40,420 --> 00:20:38,720
against it is the extent to which humans

423
00:20:42,870 --> 00:20:40,430
use ingenuity that is their

424
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:42,880
understanding of how the world works and

425
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:46,250
they deploy it in the service of

426
00:20:50,550 --> 00:20:48,410
improving human wellbeing where human

427
00:20:54,940 --> 00:20:50,560
well-being would include health

428
00:20:57,370 --> 00:20:54,950
happiness prosperity freedom stimulation

429
00:20:59,920 --> 00:20:57,380
the social ties are the kind of things

430
00:21:01,690 --> 00:20:59,930
that the people like and want to the

431
00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:01,700
extent that the kind of things that

432
00:21:05,950 --> 00:21:03,710
people like and want improve over the

433
00:21:08,290 --> 00:21:05,960
course of time that's progress and what

434
00:21:10,030 --> 00:21:08,300
makes it possible is humans solving

435
00:21:11,530 --> 00:21:10,040
problems deploying their understanding

436
00:21:15,670 --> 00:21:11,540
of the world to make other humans better

437
00:21:17,290 --> 00:21:15,680
off thank you we're just trying to make

438
00:21:19,450 --> 00:21:17,300
sure that our viewers understand how

439
00:21:22,060 --> 00:21:19,460
your view of Progress differs from let's

440
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:22,070
say the traditional if there is one view

441
00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:24,290
of progress and to the rest absolutely

442
00:21:29,590 --> 00:21:26,510
it's extremely important because people

443
00:21:30,730 --> 00:21:29,600
often confuse them and indeed the notion

444
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:30,740
that I have a problem is actually rather

445
00:21:35,110 --> 00:21:34,610
simple and boring one namely if people

446
00:21:37,450 --> 00:21:35,120
live longer

447
00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:37,460
that's progress people are less likely

448
00:21:41,620 --> 00:21:39,710
to be murdered that's progress

449
00:21:44,410 --> 00:21:41,630
if women can do what they want to do

450
00:21:47,730 --> 00:21:44,420
that's progress so the Enlightenment

451
00:21:49,900 --> 00:21:47,740
thinkers in the early enlightenment high

452
00:21:51,970 --> 00:21:49,910
technological progress to ideological

453
00:21:53,950 --> 00:21:51,980
progress arguing that the two go

454
00:21:58,210 --> 00:21:53,960
hand-in-hand would you also agree to

455
00:22:00,130 --> 00:21:58,220
that assumption not necessarily because

456
00:22:03,850 --> 00:22:00,140
it depends on what the technologies are

457
00:22:06,340 --> 00:22:03,860
deployed to do nuclear weapons for

458
00:22:08,890 --> 00:22:06,350
example our technological tour de force

459
00:22:10,270 --> 00:22:08,900
but not a example of progress because

460
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:10,280
they're designed to kill people who said

461
00:22:16,180 --> 00:22:12,890
they'd be better off antibiotics on the

462
00:22:18,700 --> 00:22:16,190
other hand oxidation panty retroviral

463
00:22:21,580 --> 00:22:18,710
those are examples of progress because

464
00:22:24,190 --> 00:22:21,590
they also involve human ingenuity but in

465
00:22:26,620 --> 00:22:24,200
order to make people happier and

466
00:22:29,650 --> 00:22:26,630
healthier in longer lived so the

467
00:22:32,380 --> 00:22:29,660
progress technology only drives progress

468
00:22:34,780 --> 00:22:32,390
when it's deployed in the service of

469
00:22:37,030 --> 00:22:34,790
humanism and that's why crucially in my

470
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:37,040
subtitle I had humanism

471
00:22:42,430 --> 00:22:38,650
as one of the ideals without it

472
00:22:44,670 --> 00:22:42,440
scientific advances don't necessarily

473
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:44,680
lead to progress

474
00:22:49,660 --> 00:22:47,450
thank you we find with the russian

475
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:49,670
philosopher Alexander Dugan he believes

476
00:22:54,370 --> 00:22:51,650
that these two should also not be

477
00:22:56,020 --> 00:22:54,380
equated that technological progress an

478
00:22:59,350 --> 00:22:56,030
ideological progress can be leagues

479
00:23:01,960 --> 00:22:59,360
apart when looking at the West do you

480
00:23:03,730 --> 00:23:01,970
find that this is the case or do you

481
00:23:05,830 --> 00:23:03,740
find that when you look at Western

482
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:05,840
societies that their technological

483
00:23:14,279 --> 00:23:08,210
progress does match their ideological

484
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:16,029
sorry about that I don't know if you're

485
00:23:27,399 --> 00:23:19,490
gonna do this so that's going online

486
00:23:30,549 --> 00:23:27,409
unedited okay so it'll be yeah sometimes

487
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:30,559
not always and it's important to

488
00:23:36,250 --> 00:23:33,770
distinguish enlightenment ideals with

489
00:23:38,590 --> 00:23:36,260
Western ideals of the Enlightenment a

490
00:23:40,630 --> 00:23:38,600
lot of the ideals originated in the West

491
00:23:42,730 --> 00:23:40,640
all ideas have to originate somewhere

492
00:23:45,310 --> 00:23:42,740
but they're they're not the same thing

493
00:23:47,789 --> 00:23:45,320
and in the West there's been furious

494
00:23:51,310 --> 00:23:47,799
opposition to enlightenment ideals I

495
00:23:54,909 --> 00:23:51,320
encounter enlightenment in romantic

496
00:23:57,250 --> 00:23:54,919
militarism in romantic nationalism so

497
00:23:59,440 --> 00:23:57,260
Western and enlightenment are definitely

498
00:24:04,799 --> 00:23:59,450
not the same thing and within the West

499
00:24:07,630 --> 00:24:04,809
there there have been many examples of

500
00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:07,640
progress often driven by by science and

501
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:15,110
technology or by philosophy and human

502
00:24:19,060 --> 00:24:16,730
rights the Universal Declaration of

503
00:24:21,700 --> 00:24:19,070
Human Rights it's hard to even to call

504
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:21,710
that Western it did most of it was

505
00:24:29,430 --> 00:24:26,210
written by by some Western thinkers and

506
00:24:32,260 --> 00:24:29,440
it was pushed by Eleanor Roosevelt but

507
00:24:34,060 --> 00:24:32,270
with the opposition of many forces

508
00:24:34,899 --> 00:24:34,070
within the West the United States is

509
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:34,909
very squeamish

510
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:37,010
for example her signing the Universal

511
00:24:41,260 --> 00:24:38,890
Declaration of Human Rights because

512
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:41,270
there was Jim Crow those racial

513
00:24:46,270 --> 00:24:42,010
segregation

514
00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:46,280
Britain was uneasy about the Universal

515
00:24:49,630 --> 00:24:47,510
Declaration of Human Rights but they

516
00:24:54,730 --> 00:24:49,640
still had their colonies where as a

517
00:24:58,690 --> 00:24:54,740
number of Eastern countries were happy

518
00:25:01,960 --> 00:24:58,700
to sign on Ethiopia and Africa a number

519
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:01,970
of Muslim majority countries were happy

520
00:25:08,860 --> 00:25:05,210
to so later on so is universal human

521
00:25:12,710 --> 00:25:08,870
rights a Western concept well somewhat

522
00:25:14,330 --> 00:25:12,720
and somewhat not understand

523
00:25:15,950 --> 00:25:14,340
that it varies and the way it's

524
00:25:17,900 --> 00:25:15,960
benefiting like an ideas have been

525
00:25:19,460 --> 00:25:17,910
adopted would you still say that the

526
00:25:26,030 --> 00:25:19,470
genesis of the Enlightenment is a

527
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:26,040
uniquely European phenomenon no some of

528
00:25:33,970 --> 00:25:30,510
the parallel ideas originated in other

529
00:25:40,190 --> 00:25:33,980
parts of the world in in India in

530
00:25:45,820 --> 00:25:40,200
Ethiopia there was a hermit living in a

531
00:25:49,790 --> 00:25:45,830
cave in Ethiopia named Yakov who

532
00:25:51,860 --> 00:25:49,800
originally sorry independently came up

533
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:51,870
with a number of the like things like

534
00:26:01,370 --> 00:25:57,090
skepticism of a scripture and human

535
00:26:03,530 --> 00:26:01,380
rights more recently in the family of

536
00:26:06,740 --> 00:26:03,540
ideas that I think most of us would want

537
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:06,750
to promote their ideas that distinctly

538
00:26:12,530 --> 00:26:09,410
came from the East such as Gandhi's

539
00:26:14,660 --> 00:26:12,540
concept of nonviolent resistance such as

540
00:26:18,790 --> 00:26:14,670
restorative justice and Ubuntu from

541
00:26:23,570 --> 00:26:18,800
South Africa so the family of ideas that

542
00:26:25,610 --> 00:26:23,580
center around using knowledge to advance

543
00:26:30,170 --> 00:26:25,620
human well-being they can come from

544
00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:30,180
anywhere if we dilute the Enlightenment

545
00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:32,310
down to just sort of these Universal

546
00:26:38,330 --> 00:26:34,710
ideas as opposed to a specific European

547
00:26:41,330 --> 00:26:38,340
movement do we run the risk of sort of

548
00:26:43,490 --> 00:26:41,340
decaffeinated it into just the kind of

549
00:26:47,300 --> 00:26:43,500
core essence of human beings that seeks

550
00:26:51,350 --> 00:26:47,310
freedom oh it's still the Enlightenment

551
00:26:54,170 --> 00:26:51,360
well yes and no so no in terms of

552
00:26:55,910 --> 00:26:54,180
capital e enlightenment if find that you

553
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:55,920
want to use the word to refer to these

554
00:26:59,360 --> 00:26:57,810
family of ideas that originated in

555
00:27:03,500 --> 00:26:59,370
certain fingers the second half of the

556
00:27:05,570 --> 00:27:03,510
18th century but words often often have

557
00:27:07,490 --> 00:27:05,580
multiple meanings there are far fewer

558
00:27:10,190 --> 00:27:07,500
words in the English language than there

559
00:27:11,810 --> 00:27:10,200
are concepts and so we can distinguish

560
00:27:14,780 --> 00:27:11,820
the Enlightenment referring to a

561
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:14,790
historical period and movement from

562
00:27:20,780 --> 00:27:17,610
enlightenment ideals namely reason

563
00:27:23,030 --> 00:27:20,790
science and humanism and as long as

564
00:27:25,510 --> 00:27:23,040
we'll clear which the work we're

565
00:27:28,370 --> 00:27:25,520
referring to on the news Gordon light

566
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:28,380
would you attribute the polygenesis of

567
00:27:32,090 --> 00:27:30,450
these Enlightenment ideas as a

568
00:27:34,550 --> 00:27:32,100
reflection of our human nature that

569
00:27:37,610 --> 00:27:34,560
human beings want freedom seek

570
00:27:41,630 --> 00:27:37,620
rationality universally and this is why

571
00:27:44,540 --> 00:27:41,640
it's polygenesis some extent they think

572
00:27:46,850 --> 00:27:44,550
is that we all want freedom for

573
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:46,860
ourselves the idea that we ought to

574
00:27:53,810 --> 00:27:50,010
promote freedom for everyone may not be

575
00:27:56,030 --> 00:27:53,820
so hardwired into human nature but it

576
00:27:58,960 --> 00:27:56,040
might be universal nonetheless with a

577
00:28:01,640 --> 00:27:58,970
combination of features of human

578
00:28:04,370 --> 00:28:01,650
rationality and self-interest just the

579
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:04,380
logical necessity that you can't

580
00:28:08,570 --> 00:28:06,810
coherence waiting saying but only my

581
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:08,580
rights count because I mean you're not

582
00:28:14,060 --> 00:28:11,490
well project doesn't recognize me but

583
00:28:19,700 --> 00:28:14,070
versus you and so when you have certain

584
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:19,710
human intuitions such as our own desire

585
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:22,170
for health and happiness for ourselves

586
00:28:27,860 --> 00:28:25,530
and our families but then sharpened in

587
00:28:30,830 --> 00:28:27,870
the core or hardened in the crucible of

588
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:30,840
debate in discussion with people who are

589
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:34,530
unlike us then the requirement of

590
00:28:39,770 --> 00:28:37,170
logical consistency paired with the

591
00:28:43,060 --> 00:28:39,780
desire for freedom and well-being will

592
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:43,070
push in the direction of universal I can

593
00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:45,330
namely soon as I'm in conversation with

594
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:48,480
you I can't say well only my happiness

595
00:28:51,950 --> 00:28:50,010
counts because I mean you're not and

596
00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:51,960
hope for you to continue the

597
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:53,910
conversation if we're gonna come to any

598
00:28:57,710 --> 00:28:55,650
kind of agreement it's gonna have to be

599
00:29:00,560 --> 00:28:57,720
well if I value my freedom I've got to

600
00:29:02,390 --> 00:29:00,570
acknowledge your desire for your freedom

601
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:02,400
so let's come up with a social

602
00:29:07,250 --> 00:29:05,130
arrangement that gives us the maximum

603
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:07,260
amount of freedom consistent with our

604
00:29:11,450 --> 00:29:09,690
not impinge upon each other's freedom we

605
00:29:13,850 --> 00:29:11,460
come up with a social contract there's

606
00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:13,860
not exactly human nature that a single

607
00:29:17,870 --> 00:29:15,600
person thinking up how the world would

608
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:17,880
work would never come up with that or

609
00:29:22,340 --> 00:29:19,890
probably wouldn't but with human nature

610
00:29:24,550 --> 00:29:22,350
in the combination of discourse debate

611
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:24,560
holding other people to account

612
00:29:30,140 --> 00:29:27,090
ferreting out law school inconsistencies

613
00:29:32,570 --> 00:29:30,150
can I think will push in the direction

614
00:29:34,490 --> 00:29:32,580
of humanism than other Enlightenment

615
00:29:37,970 --> 00:29:34,500
values

616
00:29:40,220 --> 00:29:37,980
if if these sort of intuitions that are

617
00:29:44,630 --> 00:29:40,230
that are required for this crucible of

618
00:29:46,190 --> 00:29:44,640
debate discussion are universal and are

619
00:29:48,740 --> 00:29:46,200
something that human beings didn't

620
00:29:52,039 --> 00:29:48,750
choose to have they sort of transcend

621
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:52,049
our conscious choice and are ascribed

622
00:29:55,580 --> 00:29:53,490
into our natures is it something that's

623
00:29:58,570 --> 00:29:55,590
therefore beyond humanism in the sense

624
00:30:00,710 --> 00:29:58,580
that human beings control being the

625
00:30:03,289 --> 00:30:00,720
instincts that cause them to be

626
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:03,299
enlightened they are because if maybe

627
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:06,090
evolution larger historical factors and

628
00:30:16,130 --> 00:30:08,850
that we just kind of play along in this

629
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:16,140
role I think they're they're natural in

630
00:30:21,340 --> 00:30:18,570
the sense that as people start to

631
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:21,350
interact with larger and larger

632
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:23,250
universes of discourse

633
00:30:30,590 --> 00:30:25,850
more people who are unlike themselves

634
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:30,600
and and as they learn from historical

635
00:30:35,779 --> 00:30:32,730
mistakes as they see what works and what

636
00:30:37,340 --> 00:30:35,789
doesn't anybody of course it pushes them

637
00:30:39,020 --> 00:30:37,350
in the direction of universal a few

638
00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:39,030
minutes but if although it's far from

639
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:42,000
determined because ideals and norms and

640
00:30:48,620 --> 00:30:44,970
institutions like checks and balances

641
00:30:51,649 --> 00:30:48,630
liberal democracy peer-review scientific

642
00:30:53,060 --> 00:30:51,659
communities free speech those are not an

643
00:30:55,850 --> 00:30:53,070
inevitable they're not even particularly

644
00:30:58,490 --> 00:30:55,860
natural they are optimal in the sense

645
00:31:00,830 --> 00:30:58,500
that if we seek to improve our condition

646
00:31:01,610 --> 00:31:00,840
those are the mechanisms that will allow

647
00:31:03,380 --> 00:31:01,620
us to do it

648
00:31:06,909 --> 00:31:03,390
and I think it's for that reason that

649
00:31:10,340 --> 00:31:06,919
you do see some you do see progress

650
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:10,350
materially there is it seems to be a

651
00:31:16,370 --> 00:31:12,570
historical movement toward abolishing

652
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:16,380
slavery even sacrifice discriminatory

653
00:31:23,710 --> 00:31:19,770
laws and practices and cruel practices

654
00:31:26,810 --> 00:31:23,720
not even not inevitable not monotonic

655
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:26,820
but unmistakable and I think it's the

656
00:31:34,159 --> 00:31:29,850
combination of me of human interests and

657
00:31:38,380 --> 00:31:34,169
the inherent impartiality or objectivity

658
00:31:41,149 --> 00:31:38,390
of a reason women where did you apply it

659
00:31:44,270 --> 00:31:41,159
if as soon as you get commit to reason

660
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:44,280
you're forced along certain tracks

661
00:31:50,910 --> 00:31:48,130
if the let's say this is a sort of game

662
00:31:53,850 --> 00:31:50,920
theory scenario right where like you

663
00:31:55,890 --> 00:31:53,860
said my recognizing if your rights and

664
00:31:58,370 --> 00:31:55,900
your recognizing my rights lead to an

665
00:32:02,940 --> 00:31:58,380
optimal sort of super ordinance

666
00:32:05,250 --> 00:32:02,950
situation arthel are the rules that make

667
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:05,260
that super ordinate situation are

668
00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:07,890
optimal game we should be playing

669
00:32:12,750 --> 00:32:10,510
determined by human beings or are human

670
00:32:13,290 --> 00:32:12,760
beings players in the game where the

671
00:32:17,850 --> 00:32:13,300
rules

672
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:17,860
are beyond us

673
00:32:21,050 --> 00:32:19,810
is it still fair to say that human

674
00:32:23,820 --> 00:32:21,060
beings are the greatest

675
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:23,830
determiners of their of their destiny

676
00:32:32,010 --> 00:32:27,250
that there's still humanism or at least

677
00:32:34,020 --> 00:32:32,020
for these rules transhuman yeah yeah I

678
00:32:36,540 --> 00:32:34,030
tend to think there are trans human is

679
00:32:40,170 --> 00:32:36,550
that any rational rational

680
00:32:43,940 --> 00:32:40,180
self-interested species would be forced

681
00:32:48,090 --> 00:32:43,950
to them in the inner limit as discourse

682
00:32:51,660 --> 00:32:48,100
proceeds over time they are thought up

683
00:32:54,630 --> 00:32:51,670
by humans they in constraint unit so for

684
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:54,640
example I love the idea of peer review

685
00:32:59,370 --> 00:32:57,370
in science and I hate the experience of

686
00:33:01,740 --> 00:32:59,380
getting reviews of my own manuscripts

687
00:33:05,580 --> 00:33:01,750
back because like all scientists I think

688
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:05,590
idiots would miss the point why do you

689
00:33:10,530 --> 00:33:08,290
want me to mess up my beautiful paper on

690
00:33:13,290 --> 00:33:10,540
the other hand stepping back I realize

691
00:33:17,250 --> 00:33:13,300
as much as I hate the reviews that I get

692
00:33:20,780 --> 00:33:17,260
at a meta level I sign on to the whole

693
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:20,790
idea of peer review knowing and

694
00:33:24,570 --> 00:33:22,960
simultaneously that I'm right about

695
00:33:26,130 --> 00:33:24,580
everything that I say and that as a

696
00:33:27,930 --> 00:33:26,140
human being if it couldn't possibly be

697
00:33:30,980 --> 00:33:27,940
right about everything that I say so we

698
00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:30,990
do have to live with that dual conscious

699
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:33,760
consciousness as the combination

700
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:37,090
probably of our evolutionarily fake

701
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:39,010
human nature which is to believe that

702
00:33:43,010 --> 00:33:41,170
we're always right and Noble and the

703
00:33:44,970 --> 00:33:43,020
conclusion that were forced to in

704
00:33:47,670 --> 00:33:44,980
discussion with others in

705
00:33:49,770 --> 00:33:47,680
acknowledgement of history that yeah

706
00:33:54,530 --> 00:33:49,780
everyone thinks they're right it can't

707
00:33:58,890 --> 00:33:54,540
all be right they are wrong I'm not a

708
00:34:02,160 --> 00:33:58,900
Superman I'm not a deity I can't be any

709
00:34:04,410 --> 00:34:02,170
less fallible that everyone else that I

710
00:34:07,410 --> 00:34:04,420
see therefore I'm going to submit to

711
00:34:11,550 --> 00:34:07,420
those rules so don't come naturally but

712
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:11,560
in something that we can fall into given

713
00:34:16,620 --> 00:34:14,290
debate given experience given awareness

714
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:16,630
of history

715
00:34:24,010 --> 00:34:21,050
which is essentially claiming that

716
00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:24,020
liberalism is the undisputed champion of

717
00:34:26,470 --> 00:34:24,560
the world

718
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:26,480
but then there's Alexander Alexander

719
00:34:31,180 --> 00:34:28,610
Dugan who says no there's a multiplicity

720
00:34:33,130 --> 00:34:31,190
of other options viable options do you

721
00:34:37,770 --> 00:34:33,140
see there being another option to

722
00:34:42,970 --> 00:34:40,870
there's no viable alternative to reason

723
00:34:44,470 --> 00:34:42,980
certainly if as soon as you start to

724
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:44,480
argue that there might be we've lost the

725
00:34:48,070 --> 00:34:45,770
argument because you've appealed to

726
00:34:49,990 --> 00:34:48,080
reason or if you conversely if you

727
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:50,000
reject reason there's no reason for

728
00:34:53,620 --> 00:34:51,290
anyone to take the argument seriously

729
00:34:55,030 --> 00:34:53,630
because you confess there's no good

730
00:34:57,370 --> 00:34:55,040
reason to believe it so I don't think

731
00:34:58,630 --> 00:34:57,380
there's an alternative to reason I don't

732
00:35:01,240 --> 00:34:58,640
think it's an alternative to humanism

733
00:35:03,070 --> 00:35:01,250
other than that you could argue for I

734
00:35:08,860 --> 00:35:03,080
mean you could impose it by brute force

735
00:35:12,550 --> 00:35:08,870
and again you're not about argument then

736
00:35:13,510 --> 00:35:12,560
it is I have a little justifiable for

737
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:13,520
the same reason I don't think there's an

738
00:35:18,130 --> 00:35:16,130
alternative to science now this isn't is

739
00:35:20,410 --> 00:35:18,140
these our normative arguments is what we

740
00:35:22,570 --> 00:35:20,420
ought to strive for if you interpret

741
00:35:25,180 --> 00:35:22,580
Fukuyama's making historical argument

742
00:35:27,340 --> 00:35:25,190
that societies will inevitably go in

743
00:35:29,050 --> 00:35:27,350
that direction it's not clear that he

744
00:35:30,910 --> 00:35:29,060
himself would have argued that but that

745
00:35:33,970 --> 00:35:30,920
certainly isn't true he could certainly

746
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:33,980
have our society's evolving into a

747
00:35:39,130 --> 00:35:37,090
dictatorship and other forms of

748
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:39,140
authoritarianism in terms of the

749
00:35:43,870 --> 00:35:41,450
direction that the world has taken I

750
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:43,880
think it's easy to blow off Fukuyama and

751
00:35:49,060 --> 00:35:46,610
he did set himself up for easy

752
00:35:51,130 --> 00:35:49,070
refutation honking articles that

753
00:35:53,380 --> 00:35:51,140
announced the return of history with the

754
00:35:58,110 --> 00:35:53,390
rise of authoritarian capitalism in

755
00:36:01,480 --> 00:35:58,120
China or nationalist populism in Russia

756
00:36:04,630 --> 00:36:01,490
in the United States on the other hand

757
00:36:07,290 --> 00:36:04,640
in Fukuyama's defense the number of

758
00:36:10,510 --> 00:36:07,300
democracies has increased since he

759
00:36:14,590 --> 00:36:10,520
published that article in 1989 and not

760
00:36:19,450 --> 00:36:14,600
just in the Eastern Europe but in Latin

761
00:36:23,740 --> 00:36:19,460
America in East Asia in Africa and even

762
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:23,750
with the a clashes it's not clear

763
00:36:28,730 --> 00:36:25,890
in the future how many countries are

764
00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:28,740
gonna model one sells on there's a good

765
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:32,910
news Russia it seems unlikely so end of

766
00:36:37,490 --> 00:36:34,410
history is a gimmick a minute even

767
00:36:39,230 --> 00:36:37,500
Fukuyama probably didn't really the end

768
00:36:42,470 --> 00:36:39,240
he certainly didn't be history in terms

769
00:36:46,310 --> 00:36:42,480
of stuff no longer happening I mean it

770
00:36:49,970 --> 00:36:46,320
conflict over major systems of national

771
00:36:52,490 --> 00:36:49,980
organization but it's in terms of

772
00:36:54,980 --> 00:36:52,500
whether say France is going to become

773
00:36:56,210 --> 00:36:54,990
more like China in 50 years or China is

774
00:37:00,890 --> 00:36:56,220
going to become more like more like

775
00:37:02,450 --> 00:37:00,900
France it's it's not if I had to bet on

776
00:37:03,410 --> 00:37:02,460
one or the other I'd say try to become

777
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:03,420
more like France

778
00:37:08,090 --> 00:37:05,970
okay speaking on this is odd divide have

779
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:08,100
you read Sam Harris as moral landscape

780
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:09,530
and if so what do you think about it

781
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:13,130
yeah I am I came to be sympathetic with

782
00:37:21,860 --> 00:37:17,930
with Harris learned in moral landscape I

783
00:37:25,490 --> 00:37:21,870
it is a statement of humanism he made in

784
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:25,500
some aspects of it more strongly I would

785
00:37:33,470 --> 00:37:29,490
he claims that in a nutshell told was

786
00:37:35,270 --> 00:37:33,480
simplified it that what is moral is a an

787
00:37:39,860 --> 00:37:35,280
empirical matter matter of what makes

788
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:39,870
people best off and if you interpret

789
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:41,520
that as saying that it is just an

790
00:37:46,730 --> 00:37:43,170
empirical matter that there is no

791
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:46,740
philosophical ground into it then I

792
00:37:50,270 --> 00:37:48,210
think that would go too far it's not

793
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:50,280
clear whether Sam himself would insist

794
00:37:57,839 --> 00:37:56,480
it's a view of progress compatible with

795
00:38:03,819 --> 00:37:57,849
post-modernism

796
00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:03,829
a sort of anti grand narrative ideology

797
00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:06,240
depends on what aspect of post-modernism

798
00:38:15,310 --> 00:38:22,370
you

799
00:38:27,620 --> 00:38:25,040
there may be within most models the idea

800
00:38:31,670 --> 00:38:27,630
that when power imbalances get rectified

801
00:38:34,250 --> 00:38:31,680
when people of color and women wrest

802
00:38:38,990 --> 00:38:34,260
power from white males that would be a

803
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:39,000
kind of progress but certainly the

804
00:38:43,550 --> 00:38:41,610
notion that there's been a long history

805
00:38:46,490 --> 00:38:43,560
of progress which could continue driven

806
00:38:48,380 --> 00:38:46,500
by science and universal human rights I

807
00:38:50,060 --> 00:38:48,390
think probably most public post

808
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:50,070
modernists women said wouldn't sign on

809
00:38:53,810 --> 00:38:52,050
to that yeah I'm not sure I would call

810
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:53,820
that a grand narrative you know if

811
00:38:59,710 --> 00:38:57,170
people if people try to solve problems

812
00:39:03,680 --> 00:38:59,720
occasionally they succeed if they

813
00:39:05,660 --> 00:39:03,690
solutions cumulate and then now life can

814
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:05,670
get better for more and more people is

815
00:39:08,990 --> 00:39:07,290
that a grand narrative it doesn't sound

816
00:39:11,570 --> 00:39:09,000
so grand to me but it is something that

817
00:39:13,910 --> 00:39:11,580
I would defend okay while we're

818
00:39:16,100 --> 00:39:13,920
irritating the post modernists there's

819
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:16,110
progressive nations then that means that

820
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:17,610
there's non progressive nations or even

821
00:39:21,230 --> 00:39:19,770
perhaps backwards nations does this mean

822
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:21,240
that some cultures are better than

823
00:39:28,790 --> 00:39:26,370
others well better than others in some

824
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:28,800
ways so I think for example a culture

825
00:39:33,050 --> 00:39:30,930
which wouldn't have equality is better

826
00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:33,060
in that regard in which the girls are

827
00:39:38,090 --> 00:39:34,710
kicked out of school and women are

828
00:39:40,970 --> 00:39:38,100
forced to marry and prevented from

829
00:39:43,460 --> 00:39:40,980
driving and coding so yeah I think it's

830
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:43,470
a society that executes homosexual

831
00:39:52,390 --> 00:39:46,650
sexuals is morally inferior to one that

832
00:39:54,890 --> 00:39:52,400
has equal rights so yeah I think if you

833
00:39:57,430 --> 00:39:54,900
it sounds more radical than it is but if

834
00:39:59,660 --> 00:39:57,440
you have any world standards whatsoever

835
00:40:01,670 --> 00:39:59,670
societies differ in the degree to which

836
00:40:04,460 --> 00:40:01,680
they implement and enlist in those

837
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:04,470
regards those practices of those

838
00:40:08,510 --> 00:40:07,170
societies are our superior doesn't mean

839
00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:08,520
that the people are superior doesn't

840
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:11,280
mean that that any individual has more

841
00:40:15,140 --> 00:40:13,170
inherent moral value than any other one

842
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:15,150
but in terms of cultures practices

843
00:40:21,310 --> 00:40:18,210
habits yeah how could you maintain the

844
00:40:23,450 --> 00:40:21,320
oxygen any commitments to raise morale

845
00:40:24,980 --> 00:40:23,460
okay I know you gotta go so Peters gonna

846
00:40:29,330 --> 00:40:24,990
ask one question then if I have time

847
00:40:31,070 --> 00:40:29,340
I'll just ask one more okay what is the

848
00:40:34,460 --> 00:40:31,080
cause of this progress that you've

849
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:34,470
observed in your writings at what

850
00:40:37,270 --> 00:40:35,210
expense

851
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:37,280
we obtained it when one looks at the

852
00:40:42,670 --> 00:40:39,890
history it's tempting to say that

853
00:40:45,339 --> 00:40:42,680
because of colonialism slavery child

854
00:40:47,770 --> 00:40:45,349
labor in factories that this was sort of

855
00:40:50,349 --> 00:40:47,780
the price cream enlightened societies

856
00:40:54,270 --> 00:40:50,359
paid for their advancement what would

857
00:40:57,670 --> 00:40:54,280
you say to that claim found labor is

858
00:40:59,380 --> 00:40:57,680
certainly astley predates the

859
00:41:01,300 --> 00:40:59,390
Enlightenment that was just the default

860
00:41:04,839 --> 00:41:01,310
you set your children to work in the

861
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:04,849
farm on the farm I made very briefly to

862
00:41:09,310 --> 00:41:07,250
specify when we mentioned child labor

863
00:41:11,650 --> 00:41:09,320
specifically in the English textile

864
00:41:14,490 --> 00:41:11,660
industry from which the industrial

865
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:14,500
revolutions are those let's say sparked

866
00:41:19,990 --> 00:41:17,410
there was a recruitment for orphans

867
00:41:22,060 --> 00:41:20,000
small children with nimble fingers that

868
00:41:24,250 --> 00:41:22,070
could work threading machines these are

869
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:24,260
the specific child laborers referring to

870
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:28,970
yeah yeah there were well there were a

871
00:41:35,500 --> 00:41:33,170
clearly a number of harms that coincide

872
00:41:37,660 --> 00:41:35,510
it with say with the Industrial

873
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:37,670
Revolution and if we could go back in

874
00:41:42,220 --> 00:41:39,890
time and make arguments then that we

875
00:41:44,290 --> 00:41:42,230
appreciate now then one can imagine

876
00:41:46,450 --> 00:41:44,300
alternative history that would have had

877
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:46,460
the advantages of industrialization

878
00:41:53,380 --> 00:41:49,970
without the video harms certainly

879
00:41:57,220 --> 00:41:53,390
colonial exploitation we entity had

880
00:41:59,829 --> 00:41:57,230
educated with beginning with conversant

881
00:42:03,700 --> 00:41:59,839
Cortez and Bizzaro that was way before

882
00:42:06,250 --> 00:42:03,710
the Enlightenment in fact it's kind of

883
00:42:08,380 --> 00:42:06,260
what empires did throughout history as

884
00:42:10,510 --> 00:42:08,390
they conquered and Exploited this their

885
00:42:13,410 --> 00:42:10,520
subjugated crow population so I would

886
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:13,420
not say that those are certainly a

887
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:17,930
necessary accompaniment of enlightenment

888
00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:22,930
values but more generally nothing is

889
00:42:31,240 --> 00:42:28,609
occurs with only benefits especially in

890
00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:31,250
hindsight there's a lot that are to have

891
00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:33,710
unfolded differently in terms of the

892
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:37,250
necessary price that was paid certainly

893
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:41,119
firm to the environment was an

894
00:42:45,790 --> 00:42:43,130
accompaniment in industrialization that

895
00:42:48,470 --> 00:42:45,800
we still have not dealt with in the case

896
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:48,480
of greenhouse gas emissions

897
00:42:52,970 --> 00:42:51,330
the next stage anything we didn't want

898
00:42:55,660 --> 00:42:52,980
to call progress is to enjoy the

899
00:42:58,310 --> 00:42:55,670
advances that energy capture has brought

900
00:43:00,620 --> 00:42:58,320
while rectifying and undoing the harm

901
00:43:02,950 --> 00:43:00,630
that we've done to the planet if I may

902
00:43:04,820 --> 00:43:02,960
just press on your answer to a degree

903
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:04,830
understanding that these let's say

904
00:43:09,620 --> 00:43:07,290
perils and evils predate the

905
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:09,630
Enlightenment is it still possible that

906
00:43:14,780 --> 00:43:11,850
they were a huge contributing factor for

907
00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:14,790
the success of enlightened societies who

908
00:43:22,610 --> 00:43:17,310
made let's say the most efficient use of

909
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:22,620
these perils did to some extent so for

910
00:43:31,070 --> 00:43:26,010
example the growth in economies in the

911
00:43:33,100 --> 00:43:31,080
19th century or especially the first

912
00:43:35,990 --> 00:43:33,110
half of the 19th century are we

913
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:36,000
exploited slave labor particularly in

914
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:38,130
the United States although of course it

915
00:43:41,860 --> 00:43:39,690
was the 19th century in which slavery

916
00:43:45,260 --> 00:43:41,870
was for the first time in history

917
00:43:48,020 --> 00:43:45,270
abolished in country after country but

918
00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:48,030
yes it is a more general answer is that

919
00:43:56,510 --> 00:43:52,800
as history unfolded there were harms

920
00:43:59,120 --> 00:43:56,520
that accompanied the benefits were they

921
00:44:00,980 --> 00:43:59,130
necessary I don't think so but since

922
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:00,990
history only unfolded once we'll never

923
00:44:03,770 --> 00:44:02,010
know for sure

924
00:44:09,470 --> 00:44:03,780
that is if enlightenment were applied

925
00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:09,480
more consistently and the rights and

926
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:13,920
interests of people in populations

927
00:44:18,620 --> 00:44:16,290
populations in Africa and Asia were

928
00:44:20,390 --> 00:44:18,630
taken into account if the universal

929
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:20,400
human rights movie was Universal

930
00:44:24,890 --> 00:44:23,130
couldn't have had an industrial

931
00:44:28,370 --> 00:44:24,900
revolution and expansion of rights that

932
00:44:31,010 --> 00:44:28,380
truly was universal I think that that

933
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:31,020
could have happened it didn't happen the

934
00:44:34,670 --> 00:44:32,850
extent that they should have the

935
00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:34,680
universal human rights have to wait at

936
00:44:39,140 --> 00:44:36,480
least a century maybe hundred fifty

937
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:39,150
years and that is going to history of

938
00:44:44,210 --> 00:44:41,850
Kovach yes okay the last question you

939
00:44:45,620 --> 00:44:44,220
can choose between one of these two do

940
00:44:47,870 --> 00:44:45,630
you feel like some of the new atheist

941
00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:47,880
feel that Jordan Peterson is causing

942
00:44:50,990 --> 00:44:49,200
harm to the Enlightenment project by

943
00:44:52,010 --> 00:44:51,000
making religion more palatable so that's

944
00:44:54,770 --> 00:44:52,020
question number one you can choose that

945
00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:54,780
or what are your thoughts on Noam

946
00:44:58,220 --> 00:44:56,400
Chomsky I know he has some disagreements

947
00:45:00,500 --> 00:44:58,230
with you and I wanted to know if if

948
00:45:01,670 --> 00:45:00,510
you've read them and if you could

949
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:01,680
outline to our audience what they are

950
00:45:04,190 --> 00:45:02,370
and then yours

951
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:04,200
sponsors to that you can choose those

952
00:45:11,510 --> 00:45:08,730
two Oh Jordan Peterson is a poly by his

953
00:45:14,990 --> 00:45:11,520
own mission many ways to count for

954
00:45:16,970 --> 00:45:15,000
enlightenment think so including his

955
00:45:24,590 --> 00:45:16,980
sympathy to religion his skepticism

956
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:24,600
about progress so yes I don't I don't

957
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:27,330
think I would identify him despite his

958
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:29,850
intellectual independence he was willing

959
00:45:34,820 --> 00:45:32,370
mr. challenged Authority he is not what

960
00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:34,830
you would call a defender of the project

961
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:42,110
in terms of Chomsky he I think he has a

962
00:45:48,770 --> 00:45:45,930
being an anarchist himself necessary not

963
00:45:51,140 --> 00:45:48,780
only has a romantic vision of life in

964
00:45:54,670 --> 00:45:51,150
the state of nature about before the

965
00:45:59,090 --> 00:45:54,680
onset of government and civilization the

966
00:46:01,250 --> 00:45:59,100
data pretty much universally show that

967
00:46:03,260 --> 00:46:01,260
there were higher rates of violence in

968
00:46:06,020 --> 00:46:03,270
pre state societies than in state

969
00:46:09,890 --> 00:46:06,030
societies this would include the biggest

970
00:46:12,500 --> 00:46:09,900
analysis does are after I finish better

971
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:12,510
angels of our nature by a Hosea Jose

972
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:14,850
Maria Gomez and his collaborators where

973
00:46:21,650 --> 00:46:19,440
they accumulated every datum that they

974
00:46:25,490 --> 00:46:21,660
could come across on race of violence in

975
00:46:27,350 --> 00:46:25,500
ants tribes chiefdoms and States and in

976
00:46:29,570 --> 00:46:27,360
of course there are hundreds of society

977
00:46:31,970 --> 00:46:29,580
they show unequivocally that rates of

978
00:46:34,670 --> 00:46:31,980
violence are lower in state societies

979
00:46:40,550 --> 00:46:34,680
than in tribal societies so I can think

980
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:40,560
that although no tends to deny that it

981
00:46:46,970 --> 00:46:44,610
goes against his gift i sensibilities

982
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:46,980
but that's that's what we do suggest if

983
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:49,410
you look at their entire instead of

984
00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:52,290
cherry picking a few peaceful societies

985
00:46:57,020 --> 00:46:54,960
was an ugly list and and and I am

986
00:46:59,210 --> 00:46:57,030
celebrating the fact that societies have

987
00:47:02,090 --> 00:46:59,220
become more peaceful over time but they

988
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:02,100
did not start out peaceful thank you so

989
00:47:06,230 --> 00:47:04,530
much time I appreciate it I was a

990
00:47:08,630 --> 00:47:06,240
pleasure thank you so much for your time

991
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:08,640
and you and sorry for the interruptions

992
00:47:19,780 --> 00:47:10,410
thanks thank you very much have a great

993
00:47:32,950 --> 00:47:26,050
yes can you hear me thank you

994
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:32,960
where are you by the way congratulations

995
00:47:41,470 --> 00:47:36,410
thank you what but the next question is

996
00:47:43,569 --> 00:47:41,480
wearing taupe but what recall okay I'm

997
00:47:51,430 --> 00:47:43,579
going to be in Toronto in a couple of

998
00:47:53,410 --> 00:47:51,440
weeks okay okay okay as a linguist what

999
00:47:55,870 --> 00:47:53,420
do you make of the redefinition of words

1000
00:47:57,670 --> 00:47:55,880
primarily at least as far as my research

1001
00:47:59,560 --> 00:47:57,680
is shown by the campus left by the

1002
00:48:01,540 --> 00:47:59,570
grievous studies or the radical eft or

1003
00:48:02,980 --> 00:48:01,550
whatever they're called such as racism

1004
00:48:05,530 --> 00:48:02,990
which is the old definition of racism

1005
00:48:07,359 --> 00:48:05,540
plus power or violence which is which

1006
00:48:09,450 --> 00:48:07,369
now incorporates speech about physical

1007
00:48:13,210 --> 00:48:09,460
violence or what constitutes a Nazi

1008
00:48:14,950 --> 00:48:13,220
because they may say well words change

1009
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:14,960
all the time we're just changing where

1010
00:48:18,990 --> 00:48:16,730
is this which is par for the course so I

1011
00:48:22,089 --> 00:48:19,000
want to know what you think about that

1012
00:48:24,819 --> 00:48:22,099
words change all the time but it's an

1013
00:48:27,339 --> 00:48:24,829
organic bottom-up viral process it's not

1014
00:48:30,069 --> 00:48:27,349
something that an interest group can

1015
00:48:32,589 --> 00:48:30,079
engineer first of all because you've got

1016
00:48:35,079 --> 00:48:32,599
to get buy-in from several hundred

1017
00:48:39,730 --> 00:48:35,089
million English speakers and less you're

1018
00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:39,740
a a language totalitarian despot you

1019
00:48:43,809 --> 00:48:41,839
can't order people how to how to speak

1020
00:48:45,190 --> 00:48:43,819
something is catch on and in processes

1021
00:48:47,710 --> 00:48:45,200
that don't quite understands and

1022
00:48:49,650 --> 00:48:47,720
certainly if it's in the service of an

1023
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:49,660
agenda then there's going to be a lot of

1024
00:48:54,130 --> 00:48:51,890
obvious resistance you know if I'm

1025
00:48:55,540 --> 00:48:54,140
coca-cola and I say well I'm legislating

1026
00:48:57,130 --> 00:48:55,550
from now on the word water will be

1027
00:48:58,809 --> 00:48:57,140
coca-cola so every time you want a water

1028
00:49:00,970 --> 00:48:58,819
at a restaurant we're gonna serve you

1029
00:49:02,650 --> 00:49:00,980
coca-cola billion for it and you say

1030
00:49:04,059 --> 00:49:02,660
wait I said that's not what water means

1031
00:49:06,339 --> 00:49:04,069
and I say well look words change all the

1032
00:49:08,620 --> 00:49:06,349
time you say no wait a second that just

1033
00:49:11,829 --> 00:49:08,630
sheer manipulation that's not gonna work

1034
00:49:13,990 --> 00:49:11,839
it and should not work and I'd say the

1035
00:49:16,839 --> 00:49:14,000
same thing for an interest group trying

1036
00:49:19,210 --> 00:49:16,849
to redefine words as people ordinarily

1037
00:49:20,589 --> 00:49:19,220
understand them which is the but in any

1038
00:49:23,170 --> 00:49:20,599
case the only way in which language

1039
00:49:25,030 --> 00:49:23,180
changes any way I can speak with some

1040
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:25,040
Authority here being the chair of the

1041
00:49:30,579 --> 00:49:26,690
usage panel of the American Heritage

1042
00:49:32,620 --> 00:49:30,589
Dictionary and when I ask my colleagues

1043
00:49:33,930 --> 00:49:32,630
of the dictionary how do you guys decide

1044
00:49:35,980 --> 00:49:33,940
what the

1045
00:49:37,510 --> 00:49:35,990
official meeting Awards is and they say

1046
00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:37,520
well we pay attention to the way people

1047
00:49:42,250 --> 00:49:40,250
use language so it's not as if any

1048
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:42,260
authority even a dictionary board can

1049
00:49:49,359 --> 00:49:45,010
legislate language and in the case of

1050
00:49:52,870 --> 00:49:49,369
woods like like racism it it really is a

1051
00:49:54,460 --> 00:49:52,880
terrible idea to try to change the

1052
00:49:57,640 --> 00:49:54,470
meaning so that people can't even get

1053
00:50:02,769 --> 00:49:57,650
certain thoughts across so if you ask is

1054
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:02,779
it possible for a a white powerless

1055
00:50:07,599 --> 00:50:04,970
unemployed working-class person in a

1056
00:50:13,329 --> 00:50:07,609
poor southern in order Appalachian town

1057
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:13,339
to be have derogatory opinions about

1058
00:50:17,890 --> 00:50:15,650
african-americans and you say oh no we

1059
00:50:20,170 --> 00:50:17,900
can't ask if he's racist because racist

1060
00:50:22,710 --> 00:50:20,180
means that you have to have power well

1061
00:50:25,329 --> 00:50:22,720
you can that's the question and

1062
00:50:29,099 --> 00:50:25,339
similarly to say that it is impossible

1063
00:50:31,359 --> 00:50:29,109
for an African American to have

1064
00:50:34,180 --> 00:50:31,369
beginning thoughts about Asians or

1065
00:50:36,910 --> 00:50:34,190
whites or for Asians to have bigoted

1066
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:36,920
thoughts about African Americans if they

1067
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:39,650
happen to be powerless well we put in a

1068
00:50:44,049 --> 00:50:42,170
language is to get thoughts across to

1069
00:50:46,569 --> 00:50:44,059
communicate if you try to words

1070
00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:46,579
so that certain thoughts are impossible

1071
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:48,710
who are difficult to express then you

1072
00:50:53,650 --> 00:50:50,930
just made it impossible to get knowledge

1073
00:50:56,490 --> 00:50:53,660
and clarity about the state of the world

1074
00:50:58,380 --> 00:50:56,500
the same would be true of violence

1075
00:51:02,200 --> 00:50:58,390
metaphors are great we can talk about

1076
00:51:05,380 --> 00:51:02,210
that use anything as a metaphorical

1077
00:51:07,150 --> 00:51:05,390
sense but you really do want to make a

1078
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:07,160
distinction between someone's saying

1079
00:51:11,859 --> 00:51:09,410
mean things on Twitter and someone

1080
00:51:14,500 --> 00:51:11,869
putting a bullet in your head or nice

1081
00:51:16,660 --> 00:51:14,510
between your ribs and say that well

1082
00:51:18,069 --> 00:51:16,670
you're not allowed to use words of the

1083
00:51:20,890 --> 00:51:18,079
distinguish those if you use the word

1084
00:51:22,779 --> 00:51:20,900
violence to refer to physical violence

1085
00:51:25,029 --> 00:51:22,789
it has to apply to verbal violence as

1086
00:51:27,190 --> 00:51:25,039
well well how are you gonna say even the

1087
00:51:29,260 --> 00:51:27,200
thought that I just said that and I just

1088
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:29,270
expressed a namely that there is a big

1089
00:51:34,260 --> 00:51:31,490
difference between being murdered and

1090
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:34,270
being insulted or in the case of my own

1091
00:51:39,819 --> 00:51:36,650
research that there's been an enormous

1092
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:39,829
decline in the occurrence of physical

1093
00:51:45,099 --> 00:51:42,490
violence has there been a decline or

1094
00:51:46,980 --> 00:51:45,109
priests or no change in the amount of

1095
00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:46,990
insult

1096
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:48,730
well that's an interesting question but

1097
00:51:52,650 --> 00:51:50,530
it's it is a separate question and the

1098
00:51:54,240 --> 00:51:52,660
point of language is we can pose that

1099
00:51:56,940 --> 00:51:54,250
question or any other question that's

1100
00:52:00,329 --> 00:51:56,950
the beauty and power of language and the

1101
00:52:03,060 --> 00:52:00,339
idea of trying to engineer it in a way

1102
00:52:06,540 --> 00:52:03,070
that advances a particular theory or

1103
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:06,550
agenda or political ideology at the

1104
00:52:11,310 --> 00:52:07,930
expense of just being able to share our

1105
00:52:14,550 --> 00:52:11,320
ideas is my idea because it makes it

1106
00:52:17,790 --> 00:52:14,560
hard to the clarity get knowledge get

1107
00:52:21,060 --> 00:52:17,800
understanding but it also excludes

1108
00:52:22,710 --> 00:52:21,070
people from the discourse in an age in

1109
00:52:23,460 --> 00:52:22,720
which we're getting more polarized than

1110
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:23,470
ever

1111
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:26,290
more more and more people not only

1112
00:52:31,770 --> 00:52:28,930
disagree with others but think that they

1113
00:52:36,210 --> 00:52:31,780
are stupid or and evil since not

1114
00:52:38,010 --> 00:52:36,220
everyone can be infallible and

1115
00:52:40,620 --> 00:52:38,020
omniscient and correct about everything

1116
00:52:42,660 --> 00:52:40,630
there's got to be room for respectful

1117
00:52:45,930 --> 00:52:42,670
disagreement trying to engineer language

1118
00:52:50,070 --> 00:52:45,940
to make that impossible is a pernicious

1119
00:52:52,290 --> 00:52:50,080
idea okay that's pretty

1120
00:52:53,910 --> 00:52:52,300
has ever worked where an organization or

1121
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:53,920
someone from the top down imposed a

1122
00:52:57,840 --> 00:52:56,290
certain word and then it became part of

1123
00:53:01,050 --> 00:52:57,850
the dictionary because people had to use

1124
00:53:06,060 --> 00:53:01,060
it there there certainly are changes for

1125
00:53:10,380 --> 00:53:06,070
example the the title Miz as opposed to

1126
00:53:12,300 --> 00:53:10,390
the former miss missus there was a

1127
00:53:14,790 --> 00:53:12,310
campaign in the 1970s it wasn't from in

1128
00:53:16,860 --> 00:53:14,800
any organization but that that miss and

1129
00:53:18,420 --> 00:53:16,870
missus should be dropped and is they

1130
00:53:21,390 --> 00:53:18,430
should be replaced by miss I mean that

1131
00:53:24,270 --> 00:53:21,400
was for a particular political agenda

1132
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:24,280
and it it carried the day probably

1133
00:53:31,470 --> 00:53:28,690
because it did not it actually increased

1134
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:31,480
the utility of language there are a lot

1135
00:53:36,210 --> 00:53:33,970
of times when I I don't know if a woman

1136
00:53:37,650 --> 00:53:36,220
is married or not gonna don't care and I

1137
00:53:39,810 --> 00:53:37,660
shouldn't be the language wouldn't force

1138
00:53:41,790 --> 00:53:39,820
me to decide it kind of gets in the way

1139
00:53:46,170 --> 00:53:41,800
of communication together of course with

1140
00:53:48,090 --> 00:53:46,180
conveying the attitude that a woman's

1141
00:53:50,610 --> 00:53:48,100
marital status is an essential part of

1142
00:53:54,050 --> 00:53:50,620
her identity but that is not true of men

1143
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:54,060
and then also been changes in words like

1144
00:53:59,130 --> 00:53:56,170
Negro which was very perfectly

1145
00:54:01,050 --> 00:53:59,140
acceptable word in the 1960s Martin

1146
00:54:03,720 --> 00:54:01,060
Luther King referred to Negroes we have

1147
00:54:05,940 --> 00:54:03,730
the United Negro College Fund that was

1148
00:54:09,210 --> 00:54:05,950
replaced by black which has been partly

1149
00:54:12,090 --> 00:54:09,220
superseded by African American and other

1150
00:54:13,890 --> 00:54:12,100
other terms for politically and

1151
00:54:15,900 --> 00:54:13,900
emotionally charged concepts like

1152
00:54:19,170 --> 00:54:15,910
crippled or people that we would now

1153
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:19,180
call disabled and in between they were

1154
00:54:23,940 --> 00:54:22,090
handicapped so there is that kind of

1155
00:54:26,790 --> 00:54:23,950
I've called a euphemism treadmill where

1156
00:54:29,490 --> 00:54:26,800
one term replaces another again there's

1157
00:54:33,240 --> 00:54:29,500
no one who mean the legislates it it is

1158
00:54:35,910 --> 00:54:33,250
a grassroots phenomenon the catch is on

1159
00:54:39,300 --> 00:54:35,920
there again there is no particular harm

1160
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:39,310
to clarity of communication if you call

1161
00:54:44,420 --> 00:54:41,770
someone african-american or you call

1162
00:54:46,770 --> 00:54:44,430
them black you're conveying the same

1163
00:54:49,490 --> 00:54:46,780
concepts there's a change in attitude

1164
00:54:52,380 --> 00:54:49,500
and there so it is possible for

1165
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:52,390
fraternity to change but those are ones

1166
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:54,930
where there was nothing particularly

1167
00:55:05,810 --> 00:54:56,890
tendentious and nothing that

1168
00:55:10,650 --> 00:55:08,520
okay thank you so much I appreciate your

1169
00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:10,660
time I appreciate them something like 16

1170
00:55:16,290 --> 00:55:12,250
hour turnaround from when you received

1171
00:55:24,420 --> 00:55:16,300
the request happy anniversary I hope you

1172
00:55:33,090 --> 00:55:24,430
do a celebrate well tonight too many

1173
00:55:34,620 --> 00:55:33,100
times more than once but the as a place

1174
00:55:36,359 --> 00:55:34,630
to celebrate I know this incredibly

1175
00:55:39,060 --> 00:55:36,369
touristy but when I go to Toronto I go

1176
00:55:40,740 --> 00:55:39,070
up to the top of the CN Tower the best

1177
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:40,750
food in the world and a lot of tourists

1178
00:55:55,830 --> 00:55:52,250
oh well I don't know if I've been here

1179
00:55:58,320 --> 00:55:55,840
an hour than that you know you're not

1180
00:56:01,260 --> 00:55:58,330
going to get your way all the time the

1181
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:01,270
other person is not perfect and neither

1182
00:56:10,349 --> 00:56:01,690
are you

1183
00:56:12,660 --> 00:56:10,359
that's the ground rules that you got to

1184
00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:12,670
be a team that lots of people in life

1185
00:56:18,260 --> 00:56:15,250
are going to oppose you attack you

1186
00:56:22,020 --> 00:56:18,270
undermine you but what when you get home

1187
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:22,030
you've got to have the solidarity of

1188
00:56:27,930 --> 00:56:24,010
loyalty and support of your arrest I was